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Math Forum / Mathematics / Algebra Help / October 2009



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on generating a basis for a space

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Daniel Bastos - 21 Oct 2009 13:10 GMT
We define the topology T generated by a basis C(B) as follows: a
subset U of X is said to be open in X (...) if for each x in U, there
is a basis element B in C(B) such that x in B and B subset U.

That's a rewrite of a paragraph written by James Munkres in Topology,
2nd edition, by James Munkres, section 13, page 78. I've rewritten
some notation due to lack of proper computer fonts; that's all.

My objective is to grasp the procedure intuitively. At first I was
mislead into thinking that if I follow this procedure, the topology
will have only sets U = B in C(B), and I thought this must have been
wrong. Turns out I've noticed something after writing...

 Pick some U open in X as described by Munkres' procedure. Let x in
 U. From the fact that U is open as dictated by the procedure, I have
 that each x in U is also a member of some B --- where B in C(B).
 
 From the procedure, calling U open also means that such B is a
 subset of U. So each b in B is also in U. If now each u in U is also
 in B, then U = B. It must be this last conditional which is not in
 general satisfied.

Now I think I see. Each u in U (open) happens to have *some* B in C(B)
such that u in B. But not all u in U is a member of the same B. So I
guess the last conditional really isn't always satisfied.

Now, it seems to me that the procedure is telling me ``take every
subset U of X, and intersect it with each basis B of C(B); these
intersections will each of them be open sets.''

Assuming this intuitive description is correct as far as it goes, I
cannot say these will be all the open sets that a basis describes. The
idea of a subbasis seems to offer more clues. Any thoughts and
pointers?

Before I go, let me look at an example as a basic sanity check. It
seems that all intervals (a,b) form a basis for the usual topology of
R.

Now take U = {1,7,9}; that's a subset of R. For each u in U, there is
a B in C(B) such that u in B; namely, 1 in (0,2), 7 in (6,8), 9 in
(8,11). But there is no possible B that's a subset of U because every
B is an interval --- it contains an infinity of real numbers which are
not all in U. So this U cannot be open in the usual topology of R.

Now, if you intersect U with each of theses Bs, I'll always get the
empty set, which is open by definition. So okay; this doesn't appear
to be a counter-example to the intuitive description above. That's one
check I can do right now.

Thanks for any comments.
Daniel Bastos - 21 Oct 2009 13:20 GMT
> Before I go, let me look at an example as a basic sanity check. It
> seems that all intervals (a,b) form a basis for the usual topology of
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Now, if you intersect U with each of theses Bs, I'll always get the
> empty set, (...)

Nothing like posting a message to the public; after you post, you can
easily think up obvious counterexamples to your claims. Let's take a
large enough B such as (0,10). Then (0,10) intersect U = U. But U is
not an interval. So the intuitive idea is rather incorrect.
Paul Sperry - 21 Oct 2009 18:15 GMT
> We define the topology T generated by a basis C(B) as follows: a
> subset U of X is said to be open in X (...) if for each x in U, there
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> such that u in B. But not all u in U is a member of the same B. So I
> guess the last conditional really isn't always satisfied.

Correct.

Let T(C(B)) be the topology generated by C(B) according to Munkres'
( and everybody else's) procedure. Let U be in T(C(B)). For each x in U
let B_x be in C(B) such that x in B_x subset U. Clearly (?)
U =union(B_x : x in U). On the other hand, any union of elements of
C(B) is clearly (?) in T(C(B)).

One concludes that T(C(B)) is .... and conversely, given a base C(B)),
.... is a topology for X.

> Now, it seems to me that the procedure is telling me ``take every
> subset U of X, and intersect it with each basis B of C(B); these
> intersections will each of them be open sets.''

Hmm. Use Munkres' example of the open intervals as a base for the usual
topology of R. Consider (1, 3] /\ (2, 4) = (2, 3]. Do you _really_ want
that to be open?

[...]

Signature

Paul Sperry
Columbia, SC (USA)

Daniel Bastos - 22 Oct 2009 13:40 GMT
>> We define the topology T generated by a basis C(B) as follows: a
>> subset U of X is said to be open in X (...) if for each x in U, there
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> let B_x be in C(B) such that x in B_x subset U. Clearly (?)
> U =union(B_x : x in U).

Thanks for the question mark. :-) It's clear, I think. But, while we
are here, let me digress a bit on set theory and perhaps you can warn
me of something.

The procedure itself says that each x in U has some B having x in it
and B subset U. So, sure, if you look at each of these B_x, all of
them altogether will have each x of U in some B_x; then U = union(B_x).
No elements of any B_x will yield a larger set than U because for each
x, B_x subset U.

By ``union(B_x : x in U)'' I believe you're describing which ``_x''
you're referring to; that is, all those x in U. And by ``union()'' we
mean the smallest set of all the ones that the axiom of unions allows
us to get. That is,

 Theorem. If C(B) is a collection of sets, there is a unique set U
 such that x in U if and only if x in B_x for some B_x in C(B).
 
 Proof. The axiom of unions says there is an S such that x in S if x
 in B_x for some B_x in C(B). Let K subset S. Let Q(x) be ``x in K if
 and only if x in B_x'' and the axiom of specification says K is
 uniquely described by Q(x). So K is the desired U.

 Definition. By ``union(B_x)'' we mean the unique U of the previous
 theorem.

> On the other hand, any union of elements of C(B) is clearly (?) in
> T(C(B)).

Okay. So I guess we're saying that U is in T(C(B)) iff U = union(B_x)
where B_x in C(B). So that seems to fill the blanks below.

> One concludes that T(C(B)) is .... and conversely, given a base C(B)),
> .... is a topology for X.

Let's see. T(C(B)) is the collection of all unions of members of the
base, and conversely given a base C(B), the collection of all unions
of members of the base forms a topology for X --- T(C(B)).

Great. That's Lemma 13.1, chapter 2, page 80. Let me prove it myself.

 Lemma. Let X be a set; let C(B) be a basis for some topology T on
 X. Then T is the union of all elements of C(B). That is, T =
 union(B), B in C(B)).
 
 Proof. Given C subset C(B), each B in C is also in T --- because,
 repeating myself, it trivially satisfies the procedure; B in C means
 B in C(B), and each x in B has B itself in C(B) along with B subset B.
 
 Now, because T is a topology, union(B) is in T. This shows that any
 member of the basis is in T. I must now show that any U in T can be
 expressed as union(B) with B in C(B). That establishes that T =
 union(B), with B in C(B).
 
 So let U in T. Because C(B) is a basis, there are members B in it
 such that for each x in U, there is a B_x containing x with also the
 fact that B_x subset U. (That's what being a basis means.) So we may
 write U = union(B_x) because by ``union(B_x)'' we mean the unique
 set described by all the elements of U which belong to some B_x, and
 we mean no other elements at all; since such unique set exists,
 we're done.

Phew. That was verbose.
Paul Sperry - 23 Oct 2009 04:24 GMT
> >> We define the topology T generated by a basis C(B) as follows: a
> >> subset U of X is said to be open in X (...) if for each x in U, there
[quoted text clipped - 69 lines]
>
> Great. That's Lemma 13.1, chapter 2, page 80. Let me prove it myself.

Good.

>   Lemma. Let X be a set; let C(B) be a basis for some topology T on
>   X. Then T is the union of all elements of C(B). That is, T =
>   union(B), B in C(B)).

Look again - that's not what Lemma 13.1 says.

There are three things going on here. Suppose B is a set of subsets of
X which satisfies the properties necessary by definition to be a basis
of a topology on X.

(1) Temporarily define a subset U of X to be B-open if for every
element x of U there is an element B_x of B such that x is in B_x and
B_x is contained in U. It turns out that the set of all B-open subsets
of X forms a topology on X. Let's temporarily call that the
B-basis-topology.

(2) Now, temporarily define a subset U of X to be a B-union if there is
a subset S of B such that U =union( B : B in S).  It turns out that the
set of all B-unions is also a topology on X. Let's call it the
B-union-topology.

(3) Lemma 13.1 says that the B-basis-topology is the same as the
B-union-topology.

The obvious thing to try to prove it is to show that every B-open set
is a B-union and then show that every B-union is B-open; that's what
Munkres and you do.

Suppose B is a basis for *a* topology on X; that is, B satisfies the
two properties of the definition of basis. Now let T be a topology on
X. If the B-basis-topology (= B-union-topology) is equal to T we say B
is a basis *for T*. Lemma 13.2 gives a condition on B that ensures that
B is a basis for a given topology.

>   Proof. Given C subset C(B), each B in C is also in T --- because,
>   repeating myself, it trivially satisfies the procedure; B in C means
>   B in C(B), and each x in B has B itself in C(B) along with B subset B.
>  
>   Now, because T is a topology, union(B) is in T. This shows that any
>   member of the basis is in T.

Actually, it establishes that the B-union-topology is contained in the
B-basis-topology.

> I must now show that any U in T can be
>   expressed as union(B) with B in C(B). That establishes that T =
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>   set described by all the elements of U which belong to some B_x, and
>   we mean no other elements at all; since such unique set exists,

In other words, the B-basis-topology is contained in the
B-union-topology.

>   we're done.
>
> Phew. That was verbose.

That's OK.

Signature

Paul Sperry
Columbia, SC (USA)

Daniel Bastos - 28 Oct 2009 21:07 GMT
>> >> We define the topology T generated by a basis C(B) as follows: a
>> >> subset U of X is said to be open in X (...) if for each x in U, there
[quoted text clipped - 77 lines]
>
> Look again - that's not what Lemma 13.1 says.

True. It's say that T is the collection of all unions of elements of
C(B), not the union of all B in C(B). I lack an intuitive idea of what
we're doing; I still don't see things clearly. I might have proved the
right lemma, but wrote it incorrectly and didn't notice because I have
no intuitive idea of what this is.

In fact, let me recapitulate. We have a set X. C(B) is a subcollection
of T. It doesn't need to be finite. Now, T is the collection of all
possible unions of C(B). I think I have a problem with ``union(...).''

 (*) A trivial example of some union(...)
 
 Let S = {{1,2}, {1,4,5}, {0,1,2,8}}. The axiom of unions says that
 there is a set R such that x in R if x in B subset S for some B in
 S. (If I recall correctly.) So the idea of using ``union(...)'' is
 that we specify which Bs we want, and we collect them all into one
 set. For instance, let
 
   K = union(B where B = {1,2} or B = {1,4,5})
     = {1,2,4,5}.

 We know this set K is unique. Now, if I want to express some other K
 with respect to some particular sets of a collection, I need to be
 careful about not including in the collection more sets than I want,
 or K could end up larger and give me unexpected results. For
 instance, if I had said B in S instead of explicitly have listed the
 ones I wanted, I would have ended up with 8 in K.

 Now, what are all possible unions of S? They would be {1,2},
 {1,4,5}, {0,1,2,8}, then {1,2,4,5}, {0,1,2,8}, {0,1,2,4,5,8}.

 (*) Back to a basis of a space

 A basis always has a B_x containing x. But that's not all. If x is
 shared between any two members of a basis (x in B1 intersect B2),
 then there would be another basis member B3 containing x and B3
 being no larger than the intersection.

 It is imperative here that we say something like ``no larger'' than
 the intersection; we cannot say that B3 will contain only x;
 thinking of the real numbers, it's easy to see counter-examples of
 such singleton B3 --- we can't isolate a number in an open interval.

Let's see your comments.

> There are three things going on here. Suppose B is a set of subsets of
> X which satisfies the properties necessary by definition to be a basis
> of a topology on X.

Sanity check. B is a collection of subsets; ``a set of subsets'' means
that. Just checking. Alright. B is a basis for a topology on X.

> (1) Temporarily define a subset U of X to be B-open if for every
> element x of U there is an element B_x of B such that x is in B_x and
> B_x is contained in U.

Alright. That's B-open.

> It turns out that the set of all B-open subsets of X forms a
> topology on X. Let's temporarily call that the B-basis-topology.

Okay. That's what we get by following the procedure.

> (2) Now, temporarily define a subset U of X to be a B-union if there
> is a subset S of B such that U =union( B : B in S).  It turns out
> that the set of all B-unions is also a topology on X. Let's call it
> the B-union-topology.

Okay. In other words, U is B-union if we can assemble it from a
subcollection of the basis --- assemble it through a ``union(...)''.

> (3) Lemma 13.1 says that the B-basis-topology is the same as the
> B-union-topology.

Right. This could be very believable now. Let me give you what I'm
seeing. You said

 (1) Temporarily define a subset U of X to be B-open if for every
 element x of U there is an element B_x of B such that x is in B_x
 and B_x is contained in U.

That is, U is B-open if we can write U in terms of a subcollection of
the basis. Every x in U must be somewhere in the basis (x in B_x); no
B_x can be larger than U. This seems to be exactly ``U is B-open if

  U = union(B_x : B_x in B and x in U and B_x subset U).''

 (*) Example. Let's take the reals R; let U = (0,1). A basis C(B) for
 R is all open intervals; C(B) = {(a,b) : a, b in R with a < b}. I
 want to express U in terms of a union of a subcollection of the
 basis. Let x in U. Since (0,1) is itself a member of the basis we're
 using, then each x in U satisfies x in B for some B in C(B).
 
 Let S = {(0,0.5), (0.4,1)}. Each member of S is in C(B) and also
 each one of them is subset U. Let's name them S1, and S2. Let K =
 union(S1, S2). This means that x in K if x in S1 or x in S2. (That
 is, K = (0,1)). And certainly U subset K. So K = U.

[...]

This will be volume one. I'll work on the rest some time later. Thanks
for your attention, Paul.
Paul Sperry - 29 Oct 2009 01:52 GMT
[...]

>   Let S = {{1,2}, {1,4,5}, {0,1,2,8}}. The axiom of unions says that
>   there is a set R such that x in R if x in B subset S for some B in
>   S. (If I recall correctly.) So the idea of using ``union(...)'' is
>   that we specify which Bs we want, and we collect them all into one
>   set.

Not quite. Given a collection C of subsets of a set U, the Axiom of
Unions says that there is a subset B of U such that if x belongs to an
element of C then x also belongs to B. B may be too large - there may
be elements of B which do not belong to any element of C. The Axiom of
Specification allows us to whittle B down to a set D such that x is in
D if _and only if_ x belongs to an element of C. The last sentence
serves os the working definition of Union - in practice, one seldom
worries about the superset U.

[...]

>   Now, what are all possible unions of S? They would be {1,2},
>   {1,4,5}, {0,1,2,8}, then {1,2,4,5}, {0,1,2,8}, {0,1,2,4,5,8}.

You left out one : The empty set is a subset of S and the union of the
sets in the empty set _is_ the empty set. That's how we get the empty
set to belong to the B-union topology.

[...]

> Let's see your comments.
>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> > (3) Lemma 13.1 says that the B-basis-topology is the same as the
> > B-union-topology.

[...]

"B-basis open" defines sets to be open if they posses a certain
_property_; "B-union open" defines sets to be open if they are
_constructed_ in a certain way. Lemma 13.1 says that every set
possessing the property can be constructed in the required way and
conversely, every set constructed in the given manner possesses the
required property.

>   (*) Example. Let's take the reals R; let U = (0,1). A basis C(B) for
>   R is all open intervals; C(B) = {(a,b) : a, b in R with a < b}. I
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> [...]

A better example is the Cartesian plane, R^2. We'll let C(B) consist of
all open discs i.e all sets of the form {(x, y) : (x - a)^2 + (y - b)^2
< r^2}. Think of all circular discs (without their boundary) with all
possible centers and all possible radii. I'm going to rely on your
geometric intuition to confirm that C(B) is, in fact, a basis for a
topology.

Now consider U = {(x , y) : -1 < x < 1 and -1 < y < 1}. U is the square
with side 2 centered at (0, 0); its boundary is not included. Is U open
in the topology generated by C(B)? According to Lemma 13.1, I have two
ways to decide: I can somehow come up with a bunch of discs and show
that U is the union of the discs in that bunch or I can show that every
point of U is in a disc which is in turn contained in U. I'll do
whichever seems easiest - the latter is _my_ choice. By the way, U _is_
open - {(x , y) : -1 < x < =1 and -1 < y < 1} is not.

Here's the deal. Suppose we are interested in convergence. We say,
informally, that a sequence converges to a point u in a topological
space if the sequence is "eventually" in every open set to which u
belongs. "Eventually" means from some point in the sequence on. Suppose
we have a base for the topology. Think about it for a second and you'll
see that it suffices (and is necessary too) to only require that the
sequence is "eventually" in every member of the base to which u
belongs.

In the above topology on R^2, the open sets are pretty much just
"blobs"; it is _much_ easier to work with the discs.

Disclaimer: I *said* the preceding was informal.

> This will be volume one. I'll work on the rest some time later. Thanks
> for your attention, Paul.

Signature

Paul Sperry
Columbia, SC (USA)

Daniel Bastos - 29 Oct 2009 17:27 GMT
> [...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Unions says that there is a subset B of U such that if x belongs to an
> element of C then x also belongs to B.

True. I think the mistake in my writing above is merely the ``B subset
S'' which makes the sentence nonsensical since I say ``B in S'' later.

Let's see. Given that S above, which is a collection of subsets of the
integers, the axiom of unions says that I can request a set R (being a
subset of Z, the integers) such that x in R if x in some B in S. (The
axiom of specification will give us an R that only has the members x
we specifically request.)

> B may be too large - there may be elements of B which do not belong
> to any element of C. The Axiom of Specification allows us to whittle
> B down to a set D such that x is in D if _and only if_ x belongs to
> an element of C. The last sentence serves [as] the working
> definition of Union - in practice, one seldom worries about the
> superset U.

Agreed.

>>   Now, what are all possible unions of S? They would be {1,2},
>>   {1,4,5}, {0,1,2,8}, then {1,2,4,5}, {0,1,2,8}, {0,1,2,4,5,8}.
>
> You left out one : The empty set is a subset of S and the union of the
> sets in the empty set _is_ the empty set. That's how we get the empty
> set to belong to the B-union topology.

True. I didn't see it. And I agree: if a collection is empty, a union
formed out of members of it ... will yield not x that can satisfy such
request. So it must be empty.

 (*) A digression on intersection(...)
 
 Munkres mentions a little problem when we consider the
 intersection(...)  of an empty collection. He says that ``every x
 satisfies (vacuously) the defining property for the intersection of
 the elements of C(B). The question is, every x in what set?''
 Indeed. Let me show that this may mean trouble. If C(B) is empty,
 then

      intersection(B : B in C(B))

 should give us: x in intersection() if x in B for every B in C(B). I
 ask: what are the members x which are in every B in C(B)? I say
 none. So such condition is never satisfied; which therefore
 satisfies the implication that defines the interesection.

 Theorem. If C is a set of sets, there is a unique set

   U = intersection(B : B in C)

 such that x in U iff x in B for every B in C.

 Definition. Call this U the intersection of the sets of C.

 So the condition Munkres mentions being vacuously satisfied must be
 this ``iff.'' The thing is... if C is empty, no x satisfies the idea
 of being in B for every B in C (not even for some), so we can put
 that x in U. Then without any ``global restriction'' U is the
 largest set ever, but it seems unclear whether the theory we're
 using allows such set. I'll join the ``not all mathematicians'' like
 to define such U; like Munkres, I'd leave that undefined.

 In case there is a restriction being imposed, such as ``we're only
 talking about integers,'' then I don't know; I'd have to see if
 there's a way to properly show this U is possible given some empty
 collection C of sets of integers. It's not immediately obvious to me
 that putting a ``restriction'' will be fine. It seems fine sort of
 intuitively, but I'm into the idea of showing the sets through the
 theory, or leaving them in the dark. Like you said the other day to
 my question ``can I use the set of all valid sets?''; you said ``if
 you can show it exists.'' I agree.

 I'm not bringing the constructivist sort of thing here. I'm saying I
 need at least one technical argument to consider giving birth to an
 object in the theory. If at least one argument exists, say by
 contradiction, saying that a set exists, then I'd consider it. (If
 such argument doesn't exist and also no one has constructed the
 object directly, then I'd rather not to say anything at all.)

>> Let's see your comments.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> conversely, every set constructed in the given manner possesses the
> required property.

I see. So we can write two procedures; the basis-procedure as we've
been talking about, and the new one from this lemma: take any

 union(B : B in C(B))

and throw it in T. This will generate the *same* T that we get by
following the basis-procedure. That's the gift we earn from the lemma.

>>   (*) Example. Let's take the reals R; let U = (0,1). A basis C(B) for
>>   R is all open intervals; C(B) = {(a,b) : a, b in R with a < b}. I
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> geometric intuition to confirm that C(B) is, in fact, a basis for a
> topology.

Sure. Every point (a,b) has a disc associated with it by the
definition of your C(B); take r = 1. Now, let's consider the
intersection between two discs. It's not a disc, clearly. But given
any x in this intersection, I can find a small enough disc in C(B)
that will contain x and be wholly inside the intersection; because the
interesection is always without boundaries. So yeah... my intuition
sees it, but it's not obvious which r will work in general. No matter
how small my r will be, you can always get a little closer to the
boundary to make it fail.

> Now consider U = {(x , y) : -1 < x < 1 and -1 < y < 1}. U is the square
> with side 2 centered at (0, 0); its boundary is not included. Is U open
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> point of U is in a disc which is in turn contained in U. I'll do
> whichever seems easiest - the latter is _my_ choice.

Indeed. Showing U is open by the definition of a basis seems rather
difficult (impossible?) as our intuitions beg for some other
method. And showing that we can get a union of a bunch of discs to
form a square is rather... difficult. I'll chose the latter as
well. :-) But so far it isn't clear to me that it'll work.

> By the way, U _is_ open - {(x , y) : -1 < x < =1 and -1 < y < 1} is
> not.

That's interesting. Let's see. Let x in U. Surely I can get some disc
to contain it. But it must be a disc that fits in the U square. Sure;
that happens; we can always get a small disc for the points of U, no
matter how close to the boundary.

So, yeah, okay; the problem over here is to consider the
boundary. This U_2 with -1 < x <= 1 is a strange-square... there will
be no disc that contains (1,y) and still is wholly contained in U_2,
because x = 1 causes our discs to get out of U_2.

So ``open'' squares are no problem for a disc-basis-topology. In fact,
it seems that any region of the plane without its boundaries will be
open in C(B).

> Here's the deal. Suppose we are interested in convergence. We say,
> informally, that a sequence converges to a point u in a topological
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> require that the sequence is "eventually" in every member of the
> base to which u belongs.

Let's see. If a sequence converges, then I can carry the sequence as
close to u as I want. So I demand it to be inside some really small
``radius'' (whatever the ``geometry'' of the space is, if any), and
then I will build an index N for the sequence so that any further term
n >= N of the sequence will be inside a region that's smaller than what
the ``radius'' requires.

So, effectively, I'm already saying that I'm checking that the
sequence is eventually in any member of the basis to which u
belongs. It should suffice because: take any open set containing u; if
it's too small, then it's probably some that falls in my ``radius''
and then the sequence is ``already'' in it; if it's too large, then
the sequence is certainly in it --- it's been ``for a while'' given
the sufficient index N found.

> In the above topology on R^2, the open sets are pretty much just
> "blobs"; it is _much_ easier to work with the discs.
>
> Disclaimer: I *said* the preceding was informal.

It's been a great lecture. :-) Thanks very much.
Paul Sperry - 30 Oct 2009 04:24 GMT
> > [...]
> >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> > Unions says that there is a subset B of U such that if x belongs to an
> > element of C then x also belongs to B.

Actually, what I wrote is incorrect. The phrase should be "Given a
collection of sets". If we knew they were subsets of U then we¹d take B
= U and not need an axiom.

[...]

>   (*) A digression on intersection(...)
>  
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
>   Definition. Call this U the intersection of the sets of C.

That's what Cohen and Ehrlich say - they ignore the case in which C is
empty.

>   So the condition Munkres mentions being vacuously satisfied must be
>   this ``iff.'' The thing is... if C is empty, no x satisfies the idea
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>   using allows such set. I'll join the ``not all mathematicians'' like
>   to define such U; like Munkres, I'd leave that undefined.

That usually is OK. One way to look at it is via the contrapositive.
Given an empty collection of subsets of X, is it possible for x in X
_not_ to be in the intersection? If so, there would be an element of
the collection to which x does not belong - that's not possible so the
intersection is all of X.

If you want to allow the intersection of an empty collection of sets,
specifying a superset is a necessity.

Most authors just ignore the problem. Something I've seen somewhere is
defining intersection( A : A in C) = union(A : A in C) if C is empty -
that seems awkward.

>   In case there is a restriction being imposed, such as ``we're only
>   talking about integers,'' then I don't know; I'd have to see if
[quoted text clipped - 57 lines]
>
>   union(B : B in C(B))

Arrgh!!

> and throw it in T. This will generate the *same* T that we get by
> following the basis-procedure. That's the gift we earn from the lemma.
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
> that happens; we can always get a small disc for the points of U, no
> matter how close to the boundary.

So, U _is_ open and despite our intuition 13.1 says it can be written
as a union of discs - we get those square corners from round discs.
Infinity is a wonderful thing.

> So, yeah, okay; the problem over here is to consider the
> boundary. This U_2 with -1 < x <= 1 is a strange-square... there will
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> It's been a great lecture. :-) Thanks very much.

Signature

Paul Sperry
Columbia, SC (USA)

Daniel Bastos - 30 Oct 2009 14:49 GMT
>> >> > There are three things going on here. Suppose B is a set of
>> >> > subsets of X which satisfies the properties necessary by
>> >> > definition to be a basis of a topology on X.

>> >> > (1) Temporarily define a subset U of X to be B-open if for
>> >> > every element x of U there is an element B_x of B such that x
>> >> > is in B_x and B_x is contained in U.

>> >> > It turns out that the set of all B-open subsets of X forms a
>> >> > topology on X. Let's temporarily call that the
>> >> > B-basis-topology.

>> >> > (2) Now, temporarily define a subset U of X to be a B-union if
>> >> > there is a subset S of B such that U =union( B : B in S).  It
>> >> > turns out that the set of all B-unions is also a topology on
>> >> > X. Let's call it the B-union-topology.

>> >> > (3) Lemma 13.1 says that the B-basis-topology is the same as
>> >> > the B-union-topology.

>> > "B-basis open" defines sets to be open if they posses a certain
>> > _property_; "B-union open" defines sets to be open if they are
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>> and throw it in T.

LOL. Not sure what the protest is.

A topology on X, generated by a basis, is formed of every subset U of
X where for each x in U there is a B in the basis such that x in B and
B subset U.

Lemma 13.1 says that given a basis --- which I'll call C(B) to remind
me that it's a collection of sets, and I call an arbitrary member by B
---, for a topology T on X, T will be equal to the collection of all
unions of elements of C(B).

So given any basis, I can get its topology by looking at arbitrary
unions of the members of the basis. Each union of the basis will be an
open set. So I said any union(B : B in C(B)), meaning an arbitrary
one; it must be open. This, to my eyes, should to be equivalent to the
procedure given in the beginning of section 13; it's what I read from
Lemma 13.1.

I'm being verbose to make it clear what I see. What do you say?
Daniel Bastos - 29 Oct 2009 17:26 GMT
[...]

> Suppose B is a basis for *a* topology on X; that is, B satisfies the
> two properties of the definition of basis. Now let T be a topology on
> X. If the B-basis-topology (= B-union-topology) is equal to T we say B
> is a basis *for T*. Lemma 13.2 gives a condition on B that ensures that
> B is a basis for a given topology.

I see. The interesting part of Lemma 13.2 is that C(C) generates the
same topology T. Let me write the condition.

Lemma 13.2. Let X be a space. Suppose C(C) is a collection of open
sets of X such that for each open U subset X, and each x in U, there
is a C in C(C) such that x in C subset U. Then C(C) is a basis for
*the* topology of X.

Checking that it's basis first: as Munkres puts it, the first
condition for a basis is trivial to show because X is large enough to
have each x in it, and X is open by definition with X subset X, so
it'll be in the C(C) of Lemma 13.2. The second condition is also
trivial because an intersection between two open sets will also be
open by the definition of a space; so there'll be a C in C(C)
containing x in the intersection. So C(C) is a basis. The question now
is which topology it generates. I must show it generates *the*
topology defined for X.

Let me call them T(X) and T(C). Must show T(C) = T(X). That is, I must
show that every open set as described by C(C) is in T(X) and that each
in T(X) is in T(C).

Let U be in T(C). Then, by Lemma 13.1, U = union(C : C in C(C)). But
each C is open, and unions of open sets are open. So U is in
T(X). Hm. I'm going to have to be very careful.

Two topologies on the same set can be wildly different. I have a big
clue of what T(C) is because I have its basis. Now T(X) is simply
abstract. All I know about it is that X and empty are there, that
finite intersections of X are there, and arbitrary unions of X are
there.

How do I know that each C in C(C) is in T(X)? Because it must be an
arbitrary union of open sets of X? I guess that's it. By definition of
a basis C(C), each C in C(C) will be open by trivially applying the
procedure: for each x in C there is C in C(C) such that x in C with C
subset C. Okay, every C is open in X --- that is, C is in T(X).

Therefore, finite intersections of C will be in T(X) and also
arbitrary unions. So by Lemma 13.1, U can be written as

 U = union (C : C in C(C))

and so U is in T(X). Alright. That says that T(C) is contained in T(X).

Let V be in T(X). Must show V is in T(C). T(C) is the collection
generated by C(C). V is open; so the hypothesis of this Lemma says
that for each x in V there is a C in C(C) such that x in C subset
V. This means that there is a C in C(C) containing each element x in
V. So V will end up in T(C) because we've shown that C(C) is a basis,
and that says that T(X) is contained in T(C).

Well, perhaps this is it.

Next Lemma says that if for each x and each basis member B, we can
find a basis member B' (in another basis for X) such that x in B'
subset B, then this basis-prime is finer.

So every basis is finer than itself. That kinda sucks to say. Wouldn't
be nicer to demand ``proper subset''?
Paul Sperry - 30 Oct 2009 04:22 GMT
> [...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> Let U be in T(C). Then, by Lemma 13.1, U = union(C : C in C(C)).

Be careful. That's not what 13.1 says.

> But
> each C is open, and unions of open sets are open. So U is in
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> finite intersections of X are there, and arbitrary unions of X are
> there.

I know what you mean but it's good to get into the precision habit. You
meant unions and intersections of elements of T(X).

> How do I know that each C in C(C) is in T(X)?

Because you were told "C(C) is a collection of open sets..."? That is,
every element of C(C) is open - i.e. in T(X).

> Because it must be an
> arbitrary union of open sets of X? I guess that's it. By definition of
> a basis C(C), each C in C(C) will be open by trivially applying the
> procedure: for each x in C there is C in C(C) such that x in C with C
> subset C. Okay, every C is open in X --- that is, C is in T(X).

That seems circular. You know (13.1) that every element of T(C) is a
union of elements of C(C). What you apparently don't know yet is that
elements of C(C) are also elements of T(X). (But recall that you were
_told_ that was the case.)

> Therefore, finite intersections of C will be in T(X) and also
> arbitrary unions. So by Lemma 13.1, U can be written as
>
>   U = union (C : C in C(C))

Again?

> and so U is in T(X). Alright. That says that T(C) is contained in T(X).
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> V. This means that there is a C in C(C) containing each element x in
> V. So V will end up in T(C) because we've shown that C(C) is a basis,

For T(C).

> and that says that T(X) is contained in T(C).
>
> Well, perhaps this is it.

Notice how handy 13.1 was; you used both characterizations of the
elements of T(C).

> Next Lemma says that if for each x and each basis member B, we can
> find a basis member B' (in another basis for X) such that x in B'
> subset B, then this basis-prime is finer.
>
> So every basis is finer than itself. That kinda sucks to say. Wouldn't
> be nicer to demand ``proper subset''?

Signature

Paul Sperry
Columbia, SC (USA)

Daniel Bastos - 30 Oct 2009 16:33 GMT
[...]

>> Let U be in T(C). Then, by Lemma 13.1, U = union(C : C in C(C)).
>
> Be careful. That's not what 13.1 says.

Let me get this corrected first then. By T(C) I meant the topology
generated by a basis C. I'll state Lemma 13.1 in the words of Munkres.

``Let X be a set; let C be a basis for a topology T on X. Then T
equals the collection of all unions of elements of C.''

I'll try to write with more symbols because I'll need that
eventually. The mistake must be in this translation or in my
understanding.

Let X be a set. Let C(B) be a basis for a topology T on X. All I know
about T is that it is generated by C(B). It is true that

  T = union_{B in C(B)} B.

That is, T is a set whose members are sets formed by an arbitrary
choice of elements of B in C(B). That is,

 {x | x in B for some B in C(B)}.

When we write union( B : B in C(B) ), we mean that, I suppose. So the
elements of this T will be any of this union.

So I don't see how writing

U = union( C : C in C(C))

is incorrect. Any possible U is a member of the topology generated by
C(C). That is, T = all U such that U = union(C : C in C(C)).

Let me know your thoughts.
Paul Sperry - 30 Oct 2009 17:13 GMT
> [...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> Let me know your thoughts.

Let T = {1, 2, 3, 4} and let s = sum{r : r in T).

So, s = 10? or s = 5? or s = 7? or ....

There's a difference between "all unions of elements ..." and "union of
all elements".

Signature

Paul Sperry
Columbia, SC (USA)

Daniel Bastos - 30 Oct 2009 17:25 GMT
>> [...]
>>
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> There's a difference between "all unions of elements ..." and "union of
> all elements".

I take s = sum{...} to mean any possible sum, so s is an arbitrary
element of {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7}. (If I didn't miss any.) What I
notice so far is that when I write union(...) you're taking it to mean
a fixed set, while I mean an arbitrary union; a variable representing
any possible union.
Paul Sperry - 30 Oct 2009 18:06 GMT
> >> [...]
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
> a fixed set, while I mean an arbitrary union; a variable representing
> any possible union.

I understood that to be what you meant. However, it is not what you
wrote.

"U = union(C : C in C(C))" reads "The union of _all_ [sets] C such that
C is in C(C)". That gives U = X.

"Union" is a function: union({ ...}) should have only one value.

If you don't want to write it out in plain English as Munkres did, you
could write something like "The collection of all subsets of X of the
form union(A : A in C(A)) where C(A) is a subset of C(C)".

What you wrote was "union of all elements ..."; what you wanted was
"all unions of elements ..."

Signature

Paul Sperry
Columbia, SC (USA)

Daniel Bastos - 30 Oct 2009 22:46 GMT
>> >> [...]
>> >>
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
>
> "Union" is a function: union({ ...}) should have only one value.

I can see what's up now. I was saying something like ``let 1 be any
real number...'' Union() is the smallest set containing all
``available'' elements of the collection; it's a specific thing. We
proved it was a unique a few messages ago. I didn't specify any
``subcollection'' C(C) so the result is really all elements
``available'' there; it was a basis, so each x in X was ``available''
there; U = X.

> If you don't want to write it out in plain English as Munkres did,
> you could write something like "The collection of all subsets of X
> of the form union(A : A in C(A)) where C(A) is a subset of C(C)".

Sounds good.
Daniel Bastos - 30 Oct 2009 23:26 GMT
>> [...]
>>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
> Be careful. That's not what 13.1 says.

Thanks. Now I know.

 Lemma 13.2. Let X be a space. Suppose C(C) is a collection of open
 sets of X such that for each open U subset X, and each x in U, there
 is a C in C(C) such that x in C subset U. Then C(C) is a basis for
 *the* topology of X --- called T(X).

 Proof. (I'm good with the idea that it's a basis.) I'm going to show
 that the topology T(C) generated by C(C) is the topology of X.

 Let U be in T(C). By Lemma 13.1 we can write U as

    U = union(C : C in C(U)),

 where C(U) is a subset of C(C). But every C in C(C) is in T(X) by
 hypothesis; unions of open sets are open, so U is open --- is in
 T(X).

 Let V be in T(X). By hypothesis, for each x in V, there is a C in
 C(C) such that x in C subset V. This means that we can write V as a
 union of members of C(C). That is,

   V = union(C : C in C(V)),

 where C(V) subset C(C). Now, since C(C) is a basis and V is a union
 of some of its members, V is in T(C). Hence, T(C) = T(X).

Phew. I took my chances again with union(). It may be frustrating to
see someone making mistakes all the time, but it seems essential for
me to insist on trying things by myself; it's only like this that I
can get the sophistication I want.

> Notice how handy 13.1 was; you used both characterizations of the
> elements of T(C).

Let's see; first I used 13.1. Then later, for V, I think I used it
again to express it as union; because this collection C(C) happens to
be a basis. I didn't say so, as I think I didn't need to because this
can also follow intuitively by looking at the details of the
hypothesis[*], but it wouldn't been better to invoke 13.1 again since
this collection was shown to be a basis. (I didn't notice then that I
could.) After that, I used the procedure given in (or after) the
definition of ``basis.'' So yeah, I used both characterizations, but
also should've used 13.1 twice.

[*] The details. The hypothesis gave me a collection of open sets;
these open sets U were such that each x in U had a member of the
collection containg x and this member being a subset of U. Since V was
open, V was some U of the hypothesis, so each x in V had a member of
the collection containg x. If take all applicable collection members
having these x in V, I can put them in a subcollection and take a
union() of them, expressing V as a union.

For completeness, quick comments follow.

[...]
 
>> Two topologies on the same set can be wildly different. I have a big
>> clue of what T(C) is because I have its basis. Now T(X) is simply
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I know what you mean but it's good to get into the precision
> habit. You meant unions and intersections of elements of T(X).

It's good indeed. It's not clear that I actually meant that. But it's
the only thing that'd make sense. (So I hope so!)

[...]

>> Because it must be an arbitrary union of open sets of X? I guess
>> that's it. By definition of a basis C(C), each C in C(C) will be
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> elements of C(C) are also elements of T(X). (But recall that you were
> _told_ that was the case.)

Indeed. True by hypothesis.
Paul Sperry - 31 Oct 2009 04:15 GMT
[...]

>   Lemma 13.2. Let X be a space. Suppose C(C) is a collection of open
>   sets of X such that for each open U subset X, and each x in U, there
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> me to insist on trying things by myself; it's only like this that I
> can get the sophistication I want.

Indeed, that _is_ the _only_ way to proceed. Math is not a spectator
sport - there's even a book with that title.

[...]

Signature

Paul Sperry
Columbia, SC (USA)

Brian M. Scott - 31 Oct 2009 04:54 GMT
On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 23:15:41 -0400, Paul Sperry
<plsperry@sc.rr.com> wrote in
<news:301020092315414945%plsperry@sc.rr.com> in
alt.algebra.help:

[...]

> Math is not a spectator sport - there's even a book with
> that title.

And a fairly well-known promotional poster.  I even have a
faint recollection that one of the academic publishers once
had a t-shirt with that legend.

Brian
William Elliot - 22 Oct 2009 07:27 GMT
> We define the topology T generated by a basis C(B) as follows: a
> subset U of X is said to be open in X (...) if for each x in U, there
> is a basis element B in C(B) such that x in B and B subset U.

B subset P(S) is a base for some topology on S when
    \/B = S
and
    for all U,V in B, x in U /\ V, some W in B with x in W subset U /\ V.

The topology generated by B,
    tau = topology< B > = { \/C | C subset B }.

U in tau, ie U is open by the topology tau, iff
    U is the union of a collection of sets from B.

that is equivalent to
    for all x in U, some W_x in B with x in W_x subset U.

Thus U = \/{ W_x | x in U } is a union of base sets.

It is straight forward to prove that tau is indeed a topology.

--
A distinctly different problem, the converse of generating a topology
from a base, is to construct a base B that generates a given topology T.

Thus if T is a topology for S, then B is a base for T
iff for all open U, some C subset B with U = \/C.

It's not as quite straight forward to prove that if B is
a base for T, then B generates T.

First off show that B has the needed properties (as discussed
in the first part) to generate a topology and then show
topology< B > = T.

----

> That's a rewrite of a paragraph written by James Munkres in Topology,
> 2nd edition, by James Munkres, section 13, page 78. I've rewritten
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>
> Thanks for any comments.
Paul Sperry - 22 Oct 2009 07:58 GMT
[...]

> A distinctly different problem, the converse of generating a topology
> from a base, is to construct a base B that generates a given topology T.

B = T?

[...]

Signature

Paul Sperry
Columbia, SC (USA)

William Elliot - 22 Oct 2009 10:50 GMT
> <marsh@rdrop.remove.com> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> B = T?

A distinctly different problem, the converse of generating a topology
from a base, is determining bases that generate a given topology.

This could be used to find the weight of a space S,
    w(S) = min{ |B| : B base for S }
or if a space is 2nd countable, ie w(S) = aleph_0.

A difficult problem is to determine minimal bases that generate
a given topology.

----
 
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