JSH: Why choice rules
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JSH - 02 Jul 2009 23:16 GMT On my math blog Penny Hassett had a comment that got me to thinking and after pondering at her suggestion what others believe to be true in their disagreements with me about a certain serious mathematical issue, I concluded that infinity could help to clear the air.
So I have simple examples yet again to start (believe me it gets really hard later so please pay close attention to the easy part):
7(x^2 + 3x + 2) = (7x + 7)(x + 2)
and let the ring be the ring of algebraic integers. And notice that reflects CHOICE. My choice for a simple example as the 7 can be factored an INFINITY of ways!!!
After all,
7(x^2 + 3x + 2) = (x + 1)(7x + 14)
is ALSO just as valid mathematically, and in fact there are an infinity of possible variations all equally valid.
Key here also to notice is that there are an infinity of choices FOR EVERY x, and remember the ring is the ring of algebraic integers.
So far easy and there should be no disagreement with the above!
Now to the hard mathematics.
Now we'll TRY to assume the ring is still the ring of algebraic integers and now a harder example:
7(175x^2 - 15x + 2) = (5(7)b_1(x) + 7)(5b_2(x) + 2)
where
7b_1(x) = a_1(x) and b_2(x) = a_2(x) + 1
and the a's are roots of
a^2 - (7x-1)a + (49x^2 - 14x) = 0.
Notice the b's are chosen such that when x=0, both the b's equal 0, which is to say, they are normalized.
Now just like before you have human choice, and you can imagine moving that 7 around easily enough:
7(175x^2 - 15x + 2) = (5b_1(x) + 1)(5(7)b_2(x) + 14)
which is just one more human choice out of infinity.
And there are an INFINITY of possibilities for EVERY x. Every x has an infinite number of choices.
So how does the mathematics choose?
It doesn't. I did. I chose.
But that's where the fights start and the arguing and the dead math journal comes into the picture as what follows from mathematical logic and the rigidity of infinity is a conclusion that is devastating emotionally to thousands of mathematicians around the world which is that there is a core error: the ring of algebraic integers gives a false result.
Because now you have that one of the a's has 7 as a factor by the choice argument.
But the a's are roots of
a^2 - (7x-1)a + (49x^2 - 14x) = 0
and at x=1, that gives
a^2 - 6a + 35 = 0
and provably in the ring of algebraic integers NEITHER of the roots can have 7 as a factor and there is shown the direct contradiction.
Notice the ring of algebraic integers does not fail gracefully and its error is not fixable as your alternative is to introduce some mystical force to choose out of infinity, like, maybe God?
(Posters have been remarkably vague in past arguments about how a particular factor of 7 arises, often simply repeating what is taught in math classes about ways to find the factors at any particular x, but remember there are an infinity of choices for EVERY x, so the choice problem gives you infinity at every point. So who chooses? God?)
But not even God can choose for you here if you go with mathematical logic. Of course, you can like so many human beings before you simply choose to believe in what you've been taught, even though it is very, very wrong.
The mystical nature of the disagreement with me is remarkable but I think it's natural for human beings to turn to spirits or mystical forces in the face of something difficult to understand. That's what your ancestors did.
But then you're no longer really mathematicians.
James Harris
Eddie Parker - 02 Jul 2009 23:56 GMT > On my math blog Penny Hassett had a comment that got me to thinking > and after pondering at her suggestion what others believe to be true > in their disagreements with me about a certain serious mathematical > issue, I concluded that infinity could help to clear the air. Learn how to write English, fuckwit.
Junoexpress - 03 Jul 2009 01:32 GMT > > On my math blog Penny Hassett had a comment that got me to thinking > > and after pondering at her suggestion what others believe to be true > > in their disagreements with me about a certain serious mathematical > > issue, I concluded that infinity could help to clear the air. > > Learn how to write English, fuckwit. Exactly my initial reaction...
No big surprise though: his inability to express himself clearly perfectly reflects his inability to think clearly.
LOL
M
Bacle - 03 Jul 2009 00:24 GMT > Notice the ring of algebraic integers does not fail > gracefully and its > error is not fixable as your alternative is to > introduce some mystical > force to choose out of infinity, like, maybe God?
> (Posters have been remarkably vague in past arguments > about how a [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > understand. That's what > your ancestors did. And not those of _your_ inferior species, right?
> But then you're no longer really mathematicians. Get that corn cob of your a.s , loser. You will never be a mathematician, notwithstanding the fact that you have ripped off material from other posters.
> James Harris a.shole.
KMF - 03 Jul 2009 01:09 GMT > EVERY x, so the > choice problem gives you infinity at every point. So > who chooses? > God?) So you accuse others of having mystical beliefs and you bring up god?. As a hypocrit, you are not very subtle.
> But not even God can choose for you here if you go > with mathematical [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > understand. That's what > your ancestors did. a.shole: weren't you the one constantly bring up prophecies of doom, of cannibalism, etc.?. Do explain the rational process by which you came to predict them.
Liar. Hypocrit. Self-deluded. Coward.
> But then you're no longer really mathematicians. You never were nor will be one. You don't even have the physics degree you claim you have. You failed back then, and keep failing now.
Looking forward to 15 more years of failures and whining.
> James Harris Loser.
fishfry - 03 Jul 2009 04:06 GMT In article <c6471c0c-e30a-4d77-9fb3-4bd4270dffe1@x6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>,
> On my math blog Penny Hassett had a comment that got me to thinking > and after pondering at her suggestion what others believe to be true > in their disagreements with me about a certain serious mathematical > issue, I concluded that infinity could help to clear the air. Unfortunately, infinity has been called to Washington to help calculate the national debt, and isn't available for comment.
JSH - 03 Jul 2009 04:49 GMT > In article > <c6471c0c-e30a-4d77-9fb3-4bd4270df...@x6g2000prc.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Unfortunately, infinity has been called to Washington to help calculate > the national debt, and isn't available for comment. The error I'm highlighting allows pretend mathematics as you can appear to prove just about anything with it.
Fakes can run rampant in the field once they learn the system, gaining "success" without ever actually mathematically proving anything that is correct.
Obviously for some people keeping such an error would allow them to remain in a field where they might not be able to survive without it.
Such people probably wouldn't be nice either as consider, they're willing to screw over the entire human race for the narrow gain of a paycheck today, possibly knowing full well that if our mathematics is not right, our future science that depends on the correct math can't be found.
These people are scum of the earth.
One guess is that such people believe that the world will be ok, and it's a dog eat dog world anyway, so why shouldn't they get theirs?
So they fight this result and call me names.
And so with no one but me standing up for the mathematical truth they are the voice of humanity, and it becomes the case that the human race rewards its latest major discoverer with...insults.
Read through this thread and understand the people many of you enable with your silence. They are your shame.
James Harris
KMF - 03 Jul 2009 06:05 GMT > On Jul 2, 8:06 pm, fishfry > <BLOCKSPAMfish...@your-mailbox.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > as you can > appear to prove just about anything with it. Making confused and confusing pseudo-mathematicatics is not the same as highlighting an error.
> Fakes can run rampant in the field once they learn > the system, gaining > "success" without ever actually mathematically > proving anything that > is correct. And you have been a fake outside of the system. And you have not produced a single peer-reviewed paper ( and spare me the SWJPAM sob story), so your claims to have proven something correct are pure speculation. Submit anonymously, have your paper accepted , and then you may have some basis for what you are saying. Until then, you are a crank, and you are no more believable than those who disagree with you. Why should any impartial party believe you, when you have not had any paper accepted?. Please don't tell me there is a world-wide conspiracy against you. If you have something worthwhile, someone will accept it. Until then, it is pure speculation.
> Obviously for some people keeping such an error would > allow them to > remain in a field where they might not be able to > survive without it. And for you believing you actually proved something will lead you to believe you have talent, and that you have not wasted more than 10 years of your life.
> Such people probably wouldn't be nice either as > consider, they're [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > correct math can't > be found. Pure speculation. Made up, unsupported bullshit, based on exchanges with a few people you have never met in person, and whose paychecks may not depend on the outcome of your math. convince me otherwise.
> These people are scum of the earth. > > One guess is that such people believe that the world > will be ok, and > it's a dog eat dog world anyway, so why shouldn't > they get theirs? Speculation. One guess is you are too desperate to be famous. I don't really know, but neither do you. Unless another one of your amazing powers entails the ability to read people's minds.
> So they fight this result and call me names. Hypocrit. You have given as much as you have received, if not more. Spare me the obvious double standard.
> And so with no one but me standing up for the > mathematical truth they > are the voice of humanity, and it becomes the case > that the human race > rewards its latest major discoverer with...insults. Sob... you are so good , and so pure!.
> Read through this thread and understand the people > many of you enable > with your silence. They are your shame. And your inability to produce any clear and understandable mathematics after 15+ years is _your_ shame. Submit , have it accepted, or stop whining and shut the f.ck up, please, this is getting really old.
> James Harris JSH - 03 Jul 2009 19:41 GMT > > On Jul 2, 8:06 pm, fishfry > > <BLOCKSPAMfish...@your-mailbox.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > your claims to have proven something correct > are pure speculation. Oh, so in your new fantasy world publication in a formally peer reviewed mathematical journal is just a "sob story".
In that bizarro world of your creation little things like publication are just "pure speculation", even though sci.math'ers mounted an email assault against the paper which got it pulled and then the editors a little later just gave up, and the journal died and the hosting university scrubbed all mention of it from their site.
This story is remarkable to me because there is no doubt that the gyrations posters go through to paint remarkable things as unimportant or the opposite of what they portend is some indication of the real love of the error some people must have.
I mean, it can let you do fake mathematics!
It's a back-door into a prestigious field!!!
So you can pretend to be a mathematician and be part of the group that includes Gauss, Sir Isaac Newton, Archimedes and others!
THAT is why in my opinion the hostility that comes at me is so naked and so...crude.
These are not great people, not rocket scientists, and not "genteel society".
They are con artists desperate to hold on to something they cannot legitimately earn.
They speak from the depths of their souls showing who they are as people and are fighting for the recognition and sense of prestige that so many people crave.
The error is easily shown with basic mathematics as I demonstrate with the lead post, but the denial is so rich in terms of human emotion and the grasping...the naked grasping for that feeling of BEING somebody.
It is almost more interesting than the math--on a certain level-- reading through the raw emotion pouring from some of the replies in this thread.
James Harris
Bacle - 03 Jul 2009 20:06 GMT > > > On Jul 2, 8:06 pm, fishfry > > > <BLOCKSPAMfish...@your-mailbox.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > formally peer > reviewed mathematical journal is just a "sob story". How else do you suggest that one filter out the nuts and cranks?. Do you think I am going to go through the work of everyone making outrageous claims?.
If your claim has any validity, you should be able to publish it somewhere.
> In that bizarro world of your creation little things > like publication > are just "pure speculation", I have no idea of what you mean here. Like I said before, there are hundreds of other journals out there you can submit to. Are you saying they will all refuse your paper?. Submit anonymously then.
Again: how do I filter the nuts from those who have something of value?. My time is valuable, and if I am to spend a good amount of time on something, I want to make sure it is something of value.
It is up to _you_ to explain clearly why it is that what you say is important. I have no obligation to spend time reading everyone's far-out claims, unless then can give a nice and clear explanation. You have not done that, so I will not bother. Like I will not bother with A. Zirconium or Inverse 19, etc. You all seem to believe the world turns around you and we should all drop what we are doing to read your material , without you bothering to make your point clear.
even though sci.math'ers
> mounted an email > assault against the paper which got it pulled and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > university scrubbed all mention of it from their > site. Speculation. Stop the whining and submit somewhere else.
> This story is remarkable to me because there is no > doubt that the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > indication of the real > love of the error some people must have. Ridiculous.
> I mean, it can let you do fake mathematics! > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > includes Gauss, Sir Isaac Newton, Archimedes and > others! You are a sorry-a.s wannabee , and think you are the center of the universe. But you have not done anything of value, and odds are you never will, given the 15 years you have wasted.
> THAT is why in my opinion the hostility that comes at > me is so naked > and so...crude. Yes, and yet you are always so polite, right?. You just called me a fraud in the above paragraph. But you expect to be treated well in exchange. Eat sh.t and die, fucko. If you dish it out to me, I will give it back to you. You will not bully me , let me assure you, even when they give you some time off from your padded blue room. Don't like me to talk to you like that?. Now you know how _we_ feel when you insult us.
> These are not great people, not rocket scientists, > and not "genteel > society". Nothing genteel about you calling others frauds and liars.
> They are con artists desperate to hold on to > something they cannot > legitimately earn. So are you, posting the same sorry equation for the last 10 years or so, repeating the same absurd claims.
> They speak from the depths of their souls showing who > they are as > people and are fighting for the recognition and sense > of prestige that > so many people crave. And you don't crave it?
> The error is easily shown with basic mathematics as I > demonstrate with > the lead post, but the denial is so rich in terms of > human emotion and > the grasping...the naked grasping for that feeling of > BEING somebody. That you will never get to feel.
> It is almost more interesting than the math--on a > certain level-- > reading through the raw emotion pouring from some of > the replies in > this thread. How ironic. Read your own post and find more than a line that is not full of rage. Ever heard of projection?
> James Harris Bacle - 03 Jul 2009 20:24 GMT And I have to fully agree with KMF above:
You question others' motives. How about your motives?. Fame, recognition.
amzoti - 03 Jul 2009 19:24 GMT > And so with no one but me standing up for the mathematical truth they > are the voice of humanity, and it becomes the case that the human race > rewards its latest major discoverer with...insults. > > James Harris You are a dickhead!
You think you are a discoverer?
What a joke!
If anyone is destroying the world, it is the politicians that gave you enough welfare to go to school and allowed you to believe you got an education.
That is what is destryoing the world!
You delusional narcissist!
amzoti - 03 Jul 2009 04:12 GMT > But then you're no longer really mathematicians. > > James Harris Eat sh.t you delusional narcissist!
Are you still trying to sell your snake oil?
You are a liar, cheat and charlatan!
Please get back into your self induced and drugged state and start drinking again.
It was so nice not seeing your usual bullshit spat out in yet another incarnation.
No matter because no smoke screens will fix the flaw in your brain and anything it generates.
Get your head out of your a.s!
Have a wonderful evening!
Mackly - 03 Jul 2009 05:51 GMT > On my math blog Penny Hassett had a comment that got me to thinking > and after pondering at her suggestion what others believe to be true [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > 7(x^2 + 3x + 2) = (7x + 7)(x + 2) trivial
> and let the ring be the ring of algebraic integers. And notice that > reflects CHOICE. My choice for a simple example as the 7 can be > factored an INFINITY of ways!!! > > After all,
> 7(x^2 + 3x + 2) = (x + 1)(7x + 14) 7(x^2 + 3x + 2) = 7*(x + 1)(x + 2)
OK now what ?
> is ALSO just as valid mathematically, and in fact there are an > infinity of possible variations all equally valid. so what? your just multiplying some number by another
> Key here also to notice is that there are an infinity of choices FOR > EVERY x, and remember the ring is the ring of algebraic integers. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Notice the b's are chosen such that when x=0, both the b's equal 0, > which is to say, they are normalized. and........
> Now just like before you have human choice, and you can imagine moving > that 7 around easily enough: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > It doesn't. I did. I chose. yes, you like the 7..........
> But that's where the fights start and the arguing and the dead math > journal comes into the picture as what follows from mathematical logic > and the rigidity of infinity is a conclusion that is devastating > emotionally to thousands of mathematicians around the world which is > that there is a core error: the ring of algebraic integers gives a > false result. could you make that sentance shorter?
> Because now you have that one of the a's has 7 as a factor by the > choice argument. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > and provably in the ring of algebraic integers NEITHER of the roots > can have 7 as a factor and there is shown the direct contradiction. one 7 goes in, one 7 comes out no contridiction!
> Notice the ring of algebraic integers does not fail gracefully and its > error is not fixable as your alternative is to introduce some mystical > force to choose out of infinity, like, maybe God? 7 is no good. Use 19, its much better.
> (Posters have been remarkably vague in past arguments about how a > particular factor of 7 arises, often simply repeating what is taught > in math classes about ways to find the factors at any particular x, > but remember there are an infinity of choices for EVERY x, so the > choice problem gives you infinity at every point. So who chooses? > God?) it is the negitive root you keep missing. Negitive square root.
> But not even God can choose for you here if you go with mathematical > logic. Of course, you can like so many human beings before you simply > choose to believe in what you've been taught, even though it is very, > very wrong. You may call me god, several others do.
> The mystical nature of the disagreement with me is remarkable but I > think it's natural for human beings to turn to spirits or mystical > forces in the face of something difficult to understand. That's what > your ancestors did. your ancestors were all trolls.
> But then you're no longer really mathematicians. > > James Harris and you're a mathematiticn now
Fishcake - 03 Jul 2009 06:08 GMT I got it!
I finally understand your problem.
You have no idea what "algebraic integers" are.
Now I understand why you are so confused.
Mark Murray - 03 Jul 2009 09:26 GMT > a^2 - 6a + 35 = 0 > > and provably in the ring of algebraic integers NEITHER of the roots > can have 7 as a factor and there is shown the direct contradiction. Do you know what an Algebraic Integer _is_?
14 = 2 x 7 (two primes)
But, dividing 14 by an arbitrary algebraic integer gives
14/(5 - sqrt(3) i) = 5/2 + 1/2 sqrt(3) i
So
14 = (5 - sqrt(3) i)(5/2 + 1/2 sqrt(3) i) (the product of two arbitrary algebraics having no factors in common with 2 or 7)
Any contradiction there?
M
marcus_b - 04 Jul 2009 19:19 GMT > On my math blog Penny Hassett had a comment that got me to thinking > and after pondering at her suggestion what others believe to be true [quoted text clipped - 85 lines] > choice problem gives you infinity at every point. So who chooses? > God?) Here is a proof, for x = 1, that a_1(x) and a_2(x) are both not divisible by 7.
Both a_1(1) and a_2(1) are roots of a^2 - 6a + 35.
We can let a_1(1) = 3 + sqrt(-26), a_2(1) = 3 - sqrt(-26)
Let u = -307 - 30 * sqrt(-26) and v = -307 + 30 * sqrt(-26)
Then the following can be readily checked by ordinary arithmetic:
(1) a_1(1)^6 / u = -109 + 12 * sqrt(-26)
(2) a_2(1)^6 / v = -109 - 12 * sqrt(-26)
(3) u * v = 7^6
(4) a_1(1)^6 * a_2(1)^6 / (u * v) = 15625 = 5^6.
(5) u and v are both algebraic integers
(6) Neither u nor v are units in the ring of algebraic integers.
Further, note that because of (4) above and because 5 and 7 are coprime, you can conclude that a_1(1)^6 / u and a_2(1)^6 / v have no factors in common with 7.
Conclusions:
a_1(1)^6 has a factor in common with 7, namely u.
a_2(1)^6 has a factor in common with 7, namely v.
Neither a_1(1) nor a_2(1) are divisible by 7, since neither u nor v are units and a_1(1)*a_2(1)/(u*v) = 5^6 is coprime to 7.
The key thing here is, if you have a proof contradicting this, you are contradicting not some old theorems in algebraic number theory or Galois theory. You are contradicting plain old arithmetic. If there is a problem, it goes beyond just a problem with the ring of algebraic numbers. If you are right, you have arrived at an inconsistency in all of mathematics - you have essentially proved that 1 + 1 = 3.
Either that, or your "proof" is wrong. Which do you think is more likely?
Marcus.
> But not even God can choose for you here if you go with mathematical > logic. Of course, you can like so many human beings before you simply [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > James Harris JSH - 05 Jul 2009 02:15 GMT > > On my math blog Penny Hassett had a comment that got me to thinking > > and after pondering at her suggestion what others believe to be true [quoted text clipped - 129 lines] > number theory or Galois theory. You are contradicting plain > old arithmetic. If there is a problem, it goes beyond just a Nope.
The same techniques you just used would work to "prove" that neither of the roots of
x^2 + 3x + 2 = 0
has 2 as a factor--if you don't resolve the square root.
Trivial.
The algebra is easy but the psychology is complex as the error allows people like you to do pretend mathematics!
Your very sense of self may be wrapped up in the bogus math that you do, so it's an uphill slog to get you past your denial, into the world of doing valid mathematics.
James Harris
Fishcake - 05 Jul 2009 05:03 GMT > On Jul 4, 11:19 am, marcus_b > > [quoted text clipped - 190 lines] > has 2 as a factor--if you don't resolve the square > root. Resolve the square root? I have no idea what you are saying.
I think the point was that the roots were not integers, such as
x^2 + 2x + 2 = 0
> Trivial. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > James Harris James. You have demonstrated a number of times that you have no idea what algebraic integers are. If you've been doing this for 15 years and failed, perhaps you should try to find another hobby.
W. Dale Hall - 05 Jul 2009 06:51 GMT >>> On my math blog Penny Hassett had a comment that got me to thinking >>> and after pondering at her suggestion what others believe to be true [quoted text clipped - 106 lines] > > has 2 as a factor--if you don't resolve the square root. This is not true.
> Trivial. Then provide the proof, if you think you're up to it.
> The algebra is easy but the psychology is complex as the error allows > people like you to do pretend mathematics! As the King of Pretend Mathematics, you should know?
> Your very sense of self may be wrapped up in the bogus math that you > do, so it's an uphill slog to get you past your denial, into the world > of doing valid mathematics. Here's a challenge.
You've said that one could "prove" , using the techniques marcus_b has used, that neither root of the polynomial
x^2 + 3x + 2
is divisible by 2, presumably in the ring of algebraic integers.
You've even said it's trivial.
So, prove it.
I say you can't do it. I know that I can't, I know that none of the mathematicians that I know of can prove it.
But you claim it can be done, and that it is trivial. So, put your alleged mathematics where your mouth is, and provide the proof.
Can't be so hard, if it's trivial. Maybe you'll get lucky!
> James Harris Dale
JSH - 05 Jul 2009 17:07 GMT On Jul 4, 10:51 pm, "W. Dale Hall" <wdunderscorehallatpacbelldotnet@last> wrote:
> >>> On my math blog Penny Hassett had a comment that got me to thinking > >>> and after pondering at her suggestion what others believe to be true [quoted text clipped - 112 lines] > > Then provide the proof, if you think you're up to it. Assume for the sake of argument that x^2 + 3x + 2 = 0 is irreducible over Z.
Now assume that only one root has 2 as a factor, and let x = 2y, then
4y^2 + 6y + 2 = 0, and dividing 2 off gives:
2y^2 + 3y + 1 = 0
which is also assumed to be irreducible over Z, then it cannot be true that 2 is a factor, as then the polynomial is non-monic with integer coefficients assumed to be irreducible over Z.
Note that *reducibility* is the one criteria so as I noted above, if you do not resolve the square root, then the same type argument works to show that 2 is not a factor of x^2 + 3x + 2 = 0.
So the argument is actuality is about reducibility.
I have to note for readers who don't know that the poster W. Dale Hall is one of the posters who conspired online against my paper and is in fact THE poster who the chief editor quoted in his email to me claiming a reviewer had claimed a mistake with my paper.
He didn't realize that I'd seen the material on sci.math so knew he was lying. Contacts with another editor at the now defunct journal indicate that the journal DID use two reviewers as it states but that the chief editor became convinced by the emails from the sci.math'ers that his reviewers had made a mistake!!!
Posters on sci.math have repeatedly claimed without providing evidence that the journal simply lied about using two reviewers but that is unsubtantiated opinion from people with a vested interest in lying-- obviously sci.math'ers do not want to be known as journal killers.
So if you didn't know, here is one of the sci.math conspirators still arguing against the result on the newsgroup.
He is one of the key people in the killing of the SJWPAM journal.
Another person known to have sent an email to the editors based on his posting on sci.math was Arturo Magidin. So he is one of the other people who was key in killing the journal.
If you didn't know they were two of the key conspirators, now you do.
James Harris
mjc - 05 Jul 2009 20:28 GMT JSH starts:
Assume for the sake of argument that x^2 + 3x + 2 = 0 is irreducible over Z.
(((end quote)))
It seems to me that x^2 + 3x + 2 = (x+1)(x+2).
So the assumption is false.
What have I missed?
Martin Cohen
Musatov - 05 Jul 2009 23:30 GMT > JSH starts: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Martin Cohen x-{x-1-[x-2-(x-3-x+5)]} x's cancel out;
-- Martin Musatov
marcus_b - 05 Jul 2009 23:34 GMT > On Jul 4, 10:51 pm, "W. Dale Hall" > [quoted text clipped - 119 lines] > Assume for the sake of argument that x^2 + 3x + 2 = 0 is irreducible > over Z. This is clearly supposed to be a proof by contradiction. What you should be assuming is that one of the roots has two as a factor, not that the polynomial is irreducible. Clearly you will instantly get a contradiction if you assume the polynomial is irreducible, since it obviously IS irreducible. So arriving at a contradiction with this assumption gets you nowhere.
Marcus.
> Now assume that only one root has 2 as a factor, and let x = 2y, then > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > James Harris marcus_b - 05 Jul 2009 23:50 GMT > > On Jul 4, 10:51 pm, "W. Dale Hall" > [quoted text clipped - 125 lines] > a contradiction if you assume the polynomial is irreducible, since it > obviously IS irreducible. I mean, obviously IS reducible.
M.B.
> So arriving at a contradiction with this > assumption gets you nowhere. [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > > James Harris David Bernier - 06 Jul 2009 01:37 GMT >> On Jul 4, 10:51 pm, "W. Dale Hall" >> [quoted text clipped - 103 lines] > > Marcus. I also took it as a proof by contradiction. I always look for "and we have a contradiction", or words to that effect.
It's not clear to me where a contradiction is claimed below, if at all.
David Bernier
>> Now assume that only one root has 2 as a factor, and let x = 2y, then >> [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] >> >> James Harris W. Dale Hall - 06 Jul 2009 02:39 GMT > On Jul 4, 10:51 pm, "W. Dale Hall" > <wdunderscorehallatpacbelldotnet@last> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 78 lines] > Assume for the sake of argument that x^2 + 3x + 2 = 0 is irreducible > over Z. Then you'll either have to prove that this is the case (which it isn't), or find a contradiction that results from this assumption & retract the assumption.
Why not assume 1 = 2? It's just as true, and twice as easy to use. It is not acceptable to assume something "for the sake of argument" in a mathematical proof, UNLESS you back it up by showing that the assumption is valid, OR it's the first step of an indirect proof that the assumption does not hold.
The argument that marcus_b put forth does rely on the irreducibility of a^2 - 6a + 35, but it just happens to be the case that THAT polynomial *is* irreducible over Q.
> Now assume that only one root has 2 as a factor, and let x = 2y, then > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > true that 2 is a factor, as then the polynomial is non-monic with > integer coefficients assumed to be irreducible over Z. You can't get by with a SINGLE false assumption? You need TWO? You could at least have shown that the irreducibility of the first (which just ain't so) implies the irreducibility of the second.
> Note that *reducibility* is the one criteria so as I noted above, if > you do not resolve the square root, then the same type argument works > to show that 2 is not a factor of x^2 + 3x + 2 = 0. Whether you "resolve the square root" or not, has no bearing on whether a polynomial is reducible. That's like saying that if you don't factor a number, you can assume it's prime. You can't be so clueless as to imagine that your or my actions regarding solving an equation have ANY bearing on the nature of its solutions.
Or can you?
"Is 1 even or odd?"
"Since I can't be bothered to check it out, it's even"
As I said before, why not just assume 1 = 2? It's just as true.
You don't know this, so I'll just go ahead and tell you:
The role of irreducibility stems from the fact that K[x], the ring of polynomials with coefficients in the ring K is a principal ideal domain whenever K is a field. Given an irreducible polynomial p(x), the quotient K[x]/<p> is a field, containing K, and the equivalence class of x in this field is then a root of p(x) in this extension field. If p is not irreducible, then the quotient is *not* a field.
Your assumption that x^2 + 3x + 2 is irreducible then leads to the next step, that is the conclusion that Q[x]/<x^2 + 3x + 2> is a field; I'll call it F.
Elements of F are polynomials modulo x^2 + 3x + 2; for any polynomial p(x), divide p by x^2 + 3x + 2, and take the remainder. The canonical mapping
p(x) |----> p(x) + Q[x]*(x^2 + 3x + 2)
is a ring homomorphism (that is, it respects the ring operations of addition and multiplication), as can be verified easily. If X denotes the equivalence class of the indeterminate x under this mapping, one sees immediately that F can be viewed as a 2-dimensional vector space over Q,
F ~ Q + QX
with multiplication defined by
(a + bX)(c + dX) = ac + (ad + bc)X + bd X^2
= (ac - 2bd) + (ad + bc - 3 bd)X
Let's find 1/(1 + X).
(a + bX)(1 + X) = a-2b + (a + b - 3b)X
= (a - 2b) + (a - 2b)X
For the right side to be equal to 1 (remember, we're finding the multiplicative inverse of (1+X) ), the coefficient of X must be 0. However, the coefficient of X is *equal* to the coefficient of 1.
Your "field" F doesn't have an inverse to the nonzero element (1 + X). Thus, it's not a field.
> So the argument is actuality is about reducibility. As you have assiduously avoided up 'til now. You want irrational roots of quadratics (over Z) to have the same properties as rational roots, and it's reducibility (or the lack thereof) that makes a real difference here. In fact, there have been countless discussions in sci.math on this very point, all of which you conveniently ignored.
> I have to note for readers who don't know that the poster W. Dale > Hall is one of the posters who conspired online against my paper and > is in fact THE poster who the chief editor quoted in his email to me > claiming a reviewer had claimed a mistake with my paper. That I wrote to the editor of SWJPAM about your flawed paper: true, and irrelevant. That this constituted conspiracy of any stripe, the very term suggests a secretive effort to attain an improper goal. If I believe that a journal article is flawed, it is entirely proper for me to act to remedy the situation by providing correction. In fact, you know full well that your result contradicted ordinary arithmetic, and had known several months prior to the appearance of the article in SWJPAM, if not prior to your actual submission to the journal.
> He didn't realize that I'd seen the material on sci.math so knew he > was lying. Contacts with another editor at the now defunct journal > indicate that the journal DID use two reviewers as it states but that > the chief editor became convinced by the emails from the > sci.math'ers that his reviewers had made a mistake!!! You should be more careful in specifying the antecedents of your pronouns. The "liar" in this rendition is the editor of SWJPAM, if I'm not mistaken.
An honest communication with SWJPAM on your part would have included this information, in my opinion. As you note, you were well aware of the fact that your "result" contradicted ordinary arithmetic.
As far as your communication with other editors, that is asserting facts not in evidence. Perhaps you could provide some verification?
> Posters on sci.math have repeatedly claimed without providing > evidence that the journal simply lied about using two reviewers but > that is unsubtantiated opinion from people with a vested interest in > lying-- obviously sci.math'ers do not want to be known as journal > killers. Of course, you did nothing to dispel this "unsubstantiated opinion", did you? What was evident was that no responsible reviewer would have let your article pass. Your paper mentions "standard interpretations of Galois theory", yet does not support your assertions. In fact, you make no mention of Galois theory other than to assert that Galois theory precludes the examination of factors of algebraic integers (which is patently false). Your article contains no proofs to speak of, merely some impenetrable manipulations for which you make no effort to prove validity.
If you imagine that the mere act of informing a journal (via its editors) of the presence of error constitutes "killing" the journal, surely you must wonder about the act of submitting an article that is known to have such an error.
> So if you didn't know, here is one of the sci.math conspirators still > arguing against the result on the newsgroup. > > He is one of the key people in the killing of the SJWPAM journal. As far as I know, I'm the only person to have e-mailed the journal with proof of your error. However, my estimation is that Cameron University had sole responsibility for SWJPAM, and the appearance of your article would merely have been one of many straws on the back of an overburdened camel.
> Another person known to have sent an email to the editors based on > his posting on sci.math was Arturo Magidin. So he is one of the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > James Harris Gotta love that hobby horse of yours, don't you? I'm sure it would be just swell if you'd get another hobby, like picking up a book on algebra and working through it.
Dale
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