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Math Forum / Mathematics / Statistics / July 2009



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MANOVA on principal components

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C. Papan - 27 Jun 2009 15:58 GMT
Dear all,
is it appropriate to do a MANOVA on principal component scores?
Thanks,
Papan
Rich Ulrich - 30 Jun 2009 01:58 GMT
>Dear all,
>is it appropriate to do a MANOVA on principal component scores?
>Thanks,
>Papan

If you are using all the components, it is a waste of time
and a potential source of confusion ... to do your MANOVA
on PC scores.  The overall tests will come out exactly the same,
and you will be one step removed from the underlying variables
when you try to make interpretations.  

PC is a legitimate tool for data reduction in many contexts.

It is especially useful if you can identify the underlying
constructs for the raw or rotated components.  You will
gain power for your MANOVA if you use only a few constructs
instead of using the full set of original variables, assuming
that you do not throw away important information in
the components that you discard.  

A small eigenvalue is *not*  a guarantee that a component
is meaningless, unless you are engaged in test construction
where you are only interested in the so-called common factors.
In that case, you should derive Principal factors rather than
Principal components.

Rich Ulrich
Bruce Weaver - 30 Jun 2009 12:12 GMT
> >Dear all,
> >is it appropriate to do a MANOVA on principal component scores?
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Rich Ulrich

Regarding the last point, see the article by Hadi & Ling.

 http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qst?docId=5001333495

--
Bruce Weaver
bweaver@lakeheadu.ca
http://sites.google.com/a/lakeheadu.ca/bweaver/
"When all else fails, RTFM."
Ryan - 30 Jun 2009 14:15 GMT
> >Dear all,
> >is it appropriate to do a MANOVA on principal component scores?
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Rich Ulrich

Rich,

Can you think of a situation where it would be useful to run a
statistical test (i.e. ANOVA) on component or factor scores?

Thanks,

Ryan
Rich Ulrich - 01 Jul 2009 22:25 GMT
>> >Dear all,
>> >is it appropriate to do a MANOVA on principal component scores?
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>Can you think of a situation where it would be useful to run a
>statistical test (i.e. ANOVA) on component or factor scores?

You mean, like analyzing an IQ score or a Depression score?
Yeah, most of what I've ever analyzed by ANOVA  have been
factor scores.

Despite their technical similarity, "component scores" and
"factor scores"  bring very different associations to my mind.

I think of Component scores as being exact, orthogonal
representations of the underlying structure -- usually, just
the largest several components.  I've only occasionally used them,
and I've only used them where the components made sense.
The computation of each composite uses some weight for every
variable that exists, though many of the weights are near zero.

Like I said, PC provides a form of data reduction.  There is increased
power for analysis owing to having fewer variables (degrees of
freedoms in a MANOVA).  There is increased power, also, to the
extent that a composite creates a more *reliable*  indicator
than any of the separate variables.   An overall result that
implicates one factor will be explored in terms of the variables
whose weights were largest.

On the other hand --
The long tradition for factor scores in psychology and education
uses a simple addition of items scores, with unit weights for the
items that are "included" in a factor.  Usually, each item is
included in only one factor.

Factor scores of rating scales? - Every time I start with items
for a rating scale, I do a factor analysis if I have sufficient N.

If there was supposed to be a structure in the population for
which the scale was designed, do I see the same structure
in my population?   The original factors and/or  factors that
I derive become criteria or covariates for the study.  The original
items are seldom mentioned at all.

Signature

Rich Ulrich

Rich Ulrich - 01 Jul 2009 22:57 GMT
P.S.  to what I posted -

>>>[snip]
>On the other hand --
>The long tradition for factor scores in psychology and education
>uses a simple addition of items scores, with unit weights for the
>items that are "included" in a factor.  Usually, each item is
>included in only one factor.

The newer trend, when one has a large enough sample
in hand, is to perform formal scaling procedures on the
items in a factor, using cumulative odds and logistic
regressions.

This does result in non-integer weights for items in a
scale, but it is far from using the exact scoring from
a factor analysis.

Signature

Rich Ulrich

Ryan - 02 Jul 2009 17:27 GMT
>  P.S.  to what I posted -
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> --
> Rich Ulrich

Thanks for responding Rich. Many of the self-report scales I've seen
use simple sums, without taking into consideration weighting. Usually
I see in the literature some sort of sum or [weighted sum based on
items having different levels of measurement], not a formula for
computing a factor score based on an EFA.

I am curious about using logistic regressions to obtain weights. What
would be the dependent variable in the logistic regression? And how
would someone go about applying weights (beta coefficients) to the
items? Were you thinking about weighting each item by using the
predicted probability equation for binary logistic regression?:

Predicted Probability = 1 / [1 - exp(b0+b1x1+b2x2+...+bkxp)]

Thanks,

Ryan
C. Papan - 01 Jul 2009 01:41 GMT
>> Dear all,
>> is it appropriate to do a MANOVA on principal component scores?
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Rich Ulrich

Thanks for the comments! I have multivariate data with ~1000
variables/subject and the first five PC's contain ca 95% of the
variance. I want to use Manova for testing significance between means of
groups, so in my non-expert mind I was thinking to do a MANOVA instead
of multiple ANOVAS on each PC separately. I was, however, told that
MANOVA on PC's does not make much sense, because the PC's are
uncorrelated and thus I would not find correlated effects.
Papan
David Chorlian - 01 Jul 2009 17:26 GMT
> >> Dear all,
> >> is it appropriate to do a MANOVA on principal component scores?
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> uncorrelated and thus I would not find correlated effects.
> Papan

You might be interested in O. Langsrud (2002) "50-50 multivariate
analysis of variance for collinear responses", _The Statistician_ 51:3
pp 305-317
C. Papan - 03 Jul 2009 03:04 GMT
>>>> Dear all,
>>>> is it appropriate to do a MANOVA on principal component scores?
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> analysis of variance for collinear responses", _The Statistician_ 51:3
> pp 305-317

Hadn't seen that paper, but quite relevant... thanks!
Rich Ulrich - 01 Jul 2009 22:37 GMT
>>> Dear all,
>>> is it appropriate to do a MANOVA on principal component scores?
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>uncorrelated and thus I would not find correlated effects.
>Papan

My own somewhat-expert mind tries to avoid MANOVA whenever
possible, because what it gives me unambiguously is the overall
test.  And, Right.   The main reason for using a multivariable
procedure  is when the intercorrelations matter.  There's little to
choose from, between an overall MANOVA on uncorrelated scores
and using Bonferroni correction applied to a set of separate ANOVAs.  

However, if you are computing components for a whole sample, it
is entirely possible, if not likely, that you would eventually do
tests and comparisons in sub-samples where the components now
would be correlated (at least, to some extent).

I've mainly tried to avoid complex MANOVA.  The simple versions of
MANOVA are multiple regression and multiple discriminant function,
and those are hard enough to figure out and then to explain
to people.

Signature

Rich Ulrich

 
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